Hang in there. And just remember the publishing industry is failing because its business model and the dysfunctional ecosystem it created sucks major ass, not because there's a shortage of talented writers and great people out there creating amazing work.
I often wonder if there is a better model that sits between self-publishing and agented representation. For a long time it was indie publishers. The little gals and guys that knew enough about the industry to make a dent. However, even that doesn't seem to cover the spread... I'm rambling... I feel your pain. I have one out for consideration now. It is my last submission. Everything moving forward will be held for self-publication or go on Substack. I... feel... your... pain.
I think where I'm landing is, I need to find a different (and somehow mildly fulfilling) way to make money that isn't writing, because at this point, I couldn't afford to self-publish. The other edge of that sword is I'm not a self-promoter. And you really have to be to earn back what you spend self-publishing. Preaching to the choir, here. 🙂 Somebody talked at me in a workshop once about "hybrid" publishing, which is like 1/2 self-publishing, but with an actual publishing house doing part of the work for you. The impression I got about that scene was that it's shady, lots of scams out there preying on authors, and in the end it's not less work for the author, and the amount of marketing help you get is negligible compared to what a big house/traditional contract would offer. It is crappy. But I'm grateful I'm a pragmatic person (on the outside at least). But it's less fun than being a dreamer. At some point I guess you kind of age out of that, because life dropped 8 inches of snow on you as soon as you stuck your neck out. 🌨️🙄
You don't have to stop dreaming. It just has to be tempered, which of course isn't as much fun. I still have to work a normal job, pay the bills, etc., and yet I can see a time where that won't be a huge barrier. I don't know how yet, but that's the dream part. I'm not a marketer either and the idea of doing signings or speaking engagements fills me with a bit of dread. 🤣
Actually, signings and speaking engagements are where I want to be. I'm a theater kid, those are my sweet spots. It's the "here, please buy my book" refrain for eternity that scares me. 😂
Ditto. Thankful for Substack and self-publishing. The traditional pub world is a beached whale...will take time but it's going out. Plus I get this community...
Sounds like a shitty week. I've come to believe there is no there there when it comes to being published. It's not life changing and yet we still pursue it as though it is. The joy of doing the work and sharing the work is all I've come to pursue as a daily practice. As for contests that ask you to pay them to reject you? It would be criminal if it weren't just a response by a failing industry to try to generate enough revenue to survive. It's a form of cannibalism. Keep your chin up. Your writing is wonderful.
Lately I've been trying to convince OTHER people (because I'm pretty close to convincing myself) that I might not even want to be traditionally published, because at this stage in the game it doesn't seem worth the time/heartbreak for me. But OTHER people don't want to see me give up, and will tell me, "yeah, it's a one in a million chance you'll be a huge success publishing books, but it's a one in zero chance you will be if you don't eat the dog shit." 😂 There's truth in that, of course, but it doesn't change my appetite about it.
I find lots of joy here. Writing and sharing and engaging with people. Which is why I keep showing up, even though it eats my time up and distracts me from other things I "should" be doing.
I won't pay for contests anymore. The pay-to-play model doesn't gel with my current financial situation, or my principles.
Thanks for your thoughts and kind words today. And as always, for reading. 🙂
I hear ya! I Hang in there. I love your stories, imagination and the brightness you bring here. Here's my take on the whole publishing saga. I have not submitted in a few months because it started interfering with my writing. This is a messed up "industry". I've had rude experiences that tell me there are a lot of angry, insecure, dissatisfied people here. The joke to me is that it's an industry that's acts all holier-than-thou at the same time that it is actually reckless in how it treats people. I've come to writing and submitting my work later-ish in life (in my 50s) and spent most of my career in corporate/tech world where - horror of horrors - the people and how they treat each other is vastly (hold on to your seats) better! I only mention this because the publishing industry constantly takes swipes at the for-profit world while carrying on as it is. The market doesn't solve every problem in the world but, as I was telling my husband, the civilizing effect of market forces is not to be underrated. I need to write about that someday...
So much this, Reena. I was a long-time corporate warrior before I started writing full time. Even in the most heinous industries imaginable -- big pharma, Wall Street -- there was significantly more professionalism, courtesy, and competence than what I've experienced in publishing.
The publishing industry is a joke financially, so the only currency and leverage they wield is "prestige." But in the new media economy that gig is up. Teenagers have millions of followers and orders of magnitude more reach on TikTok or YouTube than the publishing industry could fathom.
Of course, if you say this stuff to anyone in publishing they say you're bitter and it's sour grapes. But that's also part of the scam! I have two master's degrees and have achieved a lot in my life, as have most people with the competence and capability and discipline to write an entire book. We don't need their validation, they just keep telling us we do.
Reena: if you do write about this I'd be happy to contribute/collaborate. Taking down the world's villains is a specialty of mine. Ask Meg. :-)
Absolutely! I'd love to do it. Without coming across as some sort of ideologue, we could seriously collect many stories of bad faith and treatment in this context. And while I have the mic ;-), I'll add this: the market does civilize and actually contributes to self-esteem, self respect and treatment of others as independent agents. It has its limits but I sometimes get the feeling that picking apart its limitations has become a scam to keep us slouching towards this hell hole where the self serving holier-than-thou-ers get to be gatekeepers and hall monitors... BTW Substack is case in point. Came about thanks to free enterprise; note when it started msm/trad media did its damndest to go after it...
Can we also speak to the messed up-ness of how many businesses are profiting off the continued failure of writers? Like, do we need more MFA alternative programs, paid critique services, expensive retreats, pay-as-you-go webinars, all promising to give you what you "need" to have a successful writing career? When what you need is to GD WRITE and not fritter away your money on false promises and scams. I'm a highly skeptical person, which is the only reason after a year and a half of "working" as an unpaid writer, I haven't gone bankrupt. I know people who enroll in program after program after program trying to earn whatever credentials they think they need to do this, and the credentials mean dick (pardon me) at the end of the day. Your failure or success is purely at the whim of some nobody with an overinflated inbox/ego who makes a snap decision on what you can do based on what kind of "mood" they're in that day. It's DOG POOP!!
A whole other related can of worms is the fact that many (most?) full-time writers are supported financially by a spouse (I am) and thus have money to burn. Wherever there are vulnerable/gullible/stupid people with money the leeches will flock. It's basically the business model for the entire state of Florida.
Good on you for being skeptical and protecting yourself.
This whole exchange has actually made me more optimistic. Smart people are talking about trad publishing in the past tense, which is awesome. Couldn't happen to a more dysfunctional industry.
I'm changing my bio from "wannabe novelist" to novelist. I've written a novel and have almost finished another. That I haven't been "tradtionally published" doesn't detract from my accomplishment.
What I like to do is set incredibly high and unrealistic expectations. So, I have a story in the slush pile at McSweeneys. Highly unlikely they’ll buy. But my fantasy is that when they reach out to me, because it features the Black Lagoon Sea Creature as a stand-in for racism, that not only will McSweeneys want to buy it, but their friend Jordan Peele has already optioned it for a Peacock miniseries, and oh yeah, McSweeneys doesn’t want to just publish my story in the next issue of the Quarterly, they want to publish an all Wil Dalton Fiction special issue, can I send more stories pronto?
So... when I do get that rejection, I shrug and say, “well, of course! What was I thinking! That was never going to happen!” It still stings. But it stings just a little less.
Can I tell you my deepest secret fear, though? Don’t reassure me, I know it’s not true. But still. Sometimes I worry that everyone who ever said, “you should write a book,” what they really meant was, “I don’t want to listen to you talk.”
Ooh. Revealing your deepest secret anything seems like a good idea in a public comment forum. 😂 Here's mine: I write fiction because I'm afraid that whatever important things I have to say won't ever be heard, because no one wants to hear them from me! I have legit, wake me from a dead sleep, nightmares about me trying to tell someone something INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT and having them ignore me. It's terrifying. So... I think I write to not be ignored.
I feel like I want to offer some unsolicited advice, but also that there is no advice, unsolicited or not, that "fixes" the feelings around submissions and rejection, so instead I'll just say...the times I've most regretted were the fallow periods I created surrounding the rejections.
The long, endless stretches either waiting for a response (seriously, months stacked on top of months) or following a response (more months gone). The rejections stung; I chose to create nothing out of protest. I wish I could remind myself of two things: to write the best I can for the readers I already have, and to share my work with the people who already understand it.
Nothing fixes the dog-poop episodes. But your work has value -- full stop.
(And thank you for including my recent newsletter in WMMC! It's an honor!)
Thank you, Kara. This is why I love your newsletter so much. Your daily "reminders" of where my head should be with regard to my creative journey are so valuable and often so well timed it's creepy. 😊
As children we're told to dream big and shoot for the stars, but as adults we learn that there's only room for a couple of lucky folks up there, and no amount of dreaming is going to change those odds. Remembering to take stock of what we have is crucial. I have more support and readership here, than I've ever had... ever. And I'm very grateful for that.
And for your kind, supportive words! Thanks for popping in. And your posts make me misty all the time. In the hopeful way. 😊
Interestingly, the piece I wrote then echos in this one. (Clearly, I'm not done talking about dog poop feelings). And the first line of your comment there has a familiar ring to it.
Thanks for sticking with me all this time. It's been fun.
Where does the period go when parentheses end a sentence? Where does the comma go when they're in the middle of one? Thank you!
Ha ha, that’s good, your memory! Mine is shit. But it appears that I know bouncy when I see it. (My wife and I were arguing over the differences between gusty and breezy yesterday, which made me realize there are no fixed meanings to words independent of people.)
That sentence about dog poop, I would have but the period inside (the parens bracket the whole sentence). But the comma when the parens are in the middle (thusly), would come outside. (And yeah, not the best example.)
I suck at editing. 😂 I read "gusty" as "gutsy" in your first comment re: the discussion. I was thinking to myself, those two words have nothing to do with each other. Why are they bothering to argue about this? 🤪
I'd love to monetize something!! How the heck does one do that? I have no master's degrees. Just a Bachelor's in Musical Theater. Because... I thought it through. 😂
Down with traditional publishing. Better models will emerge. Substack is one, but it isn't the only. And in time, I do believe that the enduring community of passionate readers and writers will pave a better path for horse-I-mean-hard-working authors to get compensated.
Hang in there. And just remember the publishing industry is failing because its business model and the dysfunctional ecosystem it created sucks major ass, not because there's a shortage of talented writers and great people out there creating amazing work.
Never give up. Never surrender.
And never forget: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯¯
By Grabthar's hammer, did you just quote Galaxy Quest at me? 🤩 THANK YOU!!!
True friend vibes.
I often wonder if there is a better model that sits between self-publishing and agented representation. For a long time it was indie publishers. The little gals and guys that knew enough about the industry to make a dent. However, even that doesn't seem to cover the spread... I'm rambling... I feel your pain. I have one out for consideration now. It is my last submission. Everything moving forward will be held for self-publication or go on Substack. I... feel... your... pain.
I think where I'm landing is, I need to find a different (and somehow mildly fulfilling) way to make money that isn't writing, because at this point, I couldn't afford to self-publish. The other edge of that sword is I'm not a self-promoter. And you really have to be to earn back what you spend self-publishing. Preaching to the choir, here. 🙂 Somebody talked at me in a workshop once about "hybrid" publishing, which is like 1/2 self-publishing, but with an actual publishing house doing part of the work for you. The impression I got about that scene was that it's shady, lots of scams out there preying on authors, and in the end it's not less work for the author, and the amount of marketing help you get is negligible compared to what a big house/traditional contract would offer. It is crappy. But I'm grateful I'm a pragmatic person (on the outside at least). But it's less fun than being a dreamer. At some point I guess you kind of age out of that, because life dropped 8 inches of snow on you as soon as you stuck your neck out. 🌨️🙄
You don't have to stop dreaming. It just has to be tempered, which of course isn't as much fun. I still have to work a normal job, pay the bills, etc., and yet I can see a time where that won't be a huge barrier. I don't know how yet, but that's the dream part. I'm not a marketer either and the idea of doing signings or speaking engagements fills me with a bit of dread. 🤣
Actually, signings and speaking engagements are where I want to be. I'm a theater kid, those are my sweet spots. It's the "here, please buy my book" refrain for eternity that scares me. 😂
Ditto. Thankful for Substack and self-publishing. The traditional pub world is a beached whale...will take time but it's going out. Plus I get this community...
Sounds like a shitty week. I've come to believe there is no there there when it comes to being published. It's not life changing and yet we still pursue it as though it is. The joy of doing the work and sharing the work is all I've come to pursue as a daily practice. As for contests that ask you to pay them to reject you? It would be criminal if it weren't just a response by a failing industry to try to generate enough revenue to survive. It's a form of cannibalism. Keep your chin up. Your writing is wonderful.
What Ben said.
Thank you, Ben.
Lately I've been trying to convince OTHER people (because I'm pretty close to convincing myself) that I might not even want to be traditionally published, because at this stage in the game it doesn't seem worth the time/heartbreak for me. But OTHER people don't want to see me give up, and will tell me, "yeah, it's a one in a million chance you'll be a huge success publishing books, but it's a one in zero chance you will be if you don't eat the dog shit." 😂 There's truth in that, of course, but it doesn't change my appetite about it.
I find lots of joy here. Writing and sharing and engaging with people. Which is why I keep showing up, even though it eats my time up and distracts me from other things I "should" be doing.
I won't pay for contests anymore. The pay-to-play model doesn't gel with my current financial situation, or my principles.
Thanks for your thoughts and kind words today. And as always, for reading. 🙂
I so relate and have been relating for forty years. Here's my gripe: https://timosner.substack.com/p/genie-in-a-bottle
I hear ya! I Hang in there. I love your stories, imagination and the brightness you bring here. Here's my take on the whole publishing saga. I have not submitted in a few months because it started interfering with my writing. This is a messed up "industry". I've had rude experiences that tell me there are a lot of angry, insecure, dissatisfied people here. The joke to me is that it's an industry that's acts all holier-than-thou at the same time that it is actually reckless in how it treats people. I've come to writing and submitting my work later-ish in life (in my 50s) and spent most of my career in corporate/tech world where - horror of horrors - the people and how they treat each other is vastly (hold on to your seats) better! I only mention this because the publishing industry constantly takes swipes at the for-profit world while carrying on as it is. The market doesn't solve every problem in the world but, as I was telling my husband, the civilizing effect of market forces is not to be underrated. I need to write about that someday...
So much this, Reena. I was a long-time corporate warrior before I started writing full time. Even in the most heinous industries imaginable -- big pharma, Wall Street -- there was significantly more professionalism, courtesy, and competence than what I've experienced in publishing.
The publishing industry is a joke financially, so the only currency and leverage they wield is "prestige." But in the new media economy that gig is up. Teenagers have millions of followers and orders of magnitude more reach on TikTok or YouTube than the publishing industry could fathom.
Of course, if you say this stuff to anyone in publishing they say you're bitter and it's sour grapes. But that's also part of the scam! I have two master's degrees and have achieved a lot in my life, as have most people with the competence and capability and discipline to write an entire book. We don't need their validation, they just keep telling us we do.
Reena: if you do write about this I'd be happy to contribute/collaborate. Taking down the world's villains is a specialty of mine. Ask Meg. :-)
Absolutely! I'd love to do it. Without coming across as some sort of ideologue, we could seriously collect many stories of bad faith and treatment in this context. And while I have the mic ;-), I'll add this: the market does civilize and actually contributes to self-esteem, self respect and treatment of others as independent agents. It has its limits but I sometimes get the feeling that picking apart its limitations has become a scam to keep us slouching towards this hell hole where the self serving holier-than-thou-ers get to be gatekeepers and hall monitors... BTW Substack is case in point. Came about thanks to free enterprise; note when it started msm/trad media did its damndest to go after it...
I woke the beast.
Can we also speak to the messed up-ness of how many businesses are profiting off the continued failure of writers? Like, do we need more MFA alternative programs, paid critique services, expensive retreats, pay-as-you-go webinars, all promising to give you what you "need" to have a successful writing career? When what you need is to GD WRITE and not fritter away your money on false promises and scams. I'm a highly skeptical person, which is the only reason after a year and a half of "working" as an unpaid writer, I haven't gone bankrupt. I know people who enroll in program after program after program trying to earn whatever credentials they think they need to do this, and the credentials mean dick (pardon me) at the end of the day. Your failure or success is purely at the whim of some nobody with an overinflated inbox/ego who makes a snap decision on what you can do based on what kind of "mood" they're in that day. It's DOG POOP!!
Man, you guys got me all fired up. 😂🔥
A whole other related can of worms is the fact that many (most?) full-time writers are supported financially by a spouse (I am) and thus have money to burn. Wherever there are vulnerable/gullible/stupid people with money the leeches will flock. It's basically the business model for the entire state of Florida.
Good on you for being skeptical and protecting yourself.
This whole exchange has actually made me more optimistic. Smart people are talking about trad publishing in the past tense, which is awesome. Couldn't happen to a more dysfunctional industry.
I'm changing my bio from "wannabe novelist" to novelist. I've written a novel and have almost finished another. That I haven't been "tradtionally published" doesn't detract from my accomplishment.
You are 100% a novelist.
I need to go into my about page and edit out my mention of traditional publishing as my ultimate goal.
My goal is world domination now. Seems like less of a reach, IMO.
It’s a hard-knock life for us
What I like to do is set incredibly high and unrealistic expectations. So, I have a story in the slush pile at McSweeneys. Highly unlikely they’ll buy. But my fantasy is that when they reach out to me, because it features the Black Lagoon Sea Creature as a stand-in for racism, that not only will McSweeneys want to buy it, but their friend Jordan Peele has already optioned it for a Peacock miniseries, and oh yeah, McSweeneys doesn’t want to just publish my story in the next issue of the Quarterly, they want to publish an all Wil Dalton Fiction special issue, can I send more stories pronto?
So... when I do get that rejection, I shrug and say, “well, of course! What was I thinking! That was never going to happen!” It still stings. But it stings just a little less.
You're awesome, Wil.
I've won all the awards and walked all the red carpets and been on all the late-night talk shows, too. I'm right there with you, buddy.
Cheers!
Can I tell you my deepest secret fear, though? Don’t reassure me, I know it’s not true. But still. Sometimes I worry that everyone who ever said, “you should write a book,” what they really meant was, “I don’t want to listen to you talk.”
Ooh. Revealing your deepest secret anything seems like a good idea in a public comment forum. 😂 Here's mine: I write fiction because I'm afraid that whatever important things I have to say won't ever be heard, because no one wants to hear them from me! I have legit, wake me from a dead sleep, nightmares about me trying to tell someone something INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT and having them ignore me. It's terrifying. So... I think I write to not be ignored.
How am I doing? 😊
I feel like I want to offer some unsolicited advice, but also that there is no advice, unsolicited or not, that "fixes" the feelings around submissions and rejection, so instead I'll just say...the times I've most regretted were the fallow periods I created surrounding the rejections.
The long, endless stretches either waiting for a response (seriously, months stacked on top of months) or following a response (more months gone). The rejections stung; I chose to create nothing out of protest. I wish I could remind myself of two things: to write the best I can for the readers I already have, and to share my work with the people who already understand it.
Nothing fixes the dog-poop episodes. But your work has value -- full stop.
(And thank you for including my recent newsletter in WMMC! It's an honor!)
Thank you, Kara. This is why I love your newsletter so much. Your daily "reminders" of where my head should be with regard to my creative journey are so valuable and often so well timed it's creepy. 😊
As children we're told to dream big and shoot for the stars, but as adults we learn that there's only room for a couple of lucky folks up there, and no amount of dreaming is going to change those odds. Remembering to take stock of what we have is crucial. I have more support and readership here, than I've ever had... ever. And I'm very grateful for that.
And for your kind, supportive words! Thanks for popping in. And your posts make me misty all the time. In the hopeful way. 😊
I'm here for you!!
Jeez, yes, all those things the other people said 👆plus fuck ‘em! 🖕And by the way, I like the snappy bounce in your non-fiction.
Thanks, Tom. You might find this amusing. I have a VERY good memory, so this comment took me back to the first comment you ever left on my Substack.
https://open.substack.com/pub/stockfiction/p/little-highs-big-lows?r=tftu6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Interestingly, the piece I wrote then echos in this one. (Clearly, I'm not done talking about dog poop feelings). And the first line of your comment there has a familiar ring to it.
Thanks for sticking with me all this time. It's been fun.
Where does the period go when parentheses end a sentence? Where does the comma go when they're in the middle of one? Thank you!
Ha ha, that’s good, your memory! Mine is shit. But it appears that I know bouncy when I see it. (My wife and I were arguing over the differences between gusty and breezy yesterday, which made me realize there are no fixed meanings to words independent of people.)
That sentence about dog poop, I would have but the period inside (the parens bracket the whole sentence). But the comma when the parens are in the middle (thusly), would come outside. (And yeah, not the best example.)
I need to edit this, because you said inside but you put it outside the (sentence.). Can I just do both? 😜
Were you gutsy and she was breezy in that conversation? Or the other way around?
No one would ever describe me as breezy. But I can get on board with bouncy.
Look again, I did both examples, with intent. I was for breezy, she gusty, but she gets cold easier.
I suck at editing. 😂 I read "gusty" as "gutsy" in your first comment re: the discussion. I was thinking to myself, those two words have nothing to do with each other. Why are they bothering to argue about this? 🤪
Breezy moves wind chimes. Gusty blows over patio umbrellas.
And Meg I LOVE your dividers... I need to learn how to do that. Meanwhile I bought this set online... (https://app.gumroad.com/d/5a5e912474e1d4d904b294abc2fd74bc).
AND you should monetize yours. They're so lovely.
Amen and amen.
I'd love to monetize something!! How the heck does one do that? I have no master's degrees. Just a Bachelor's in Musical Theater. Because... I thought it through. 😂
Down with traditional publishing. Better models will emerge. Substack is one, but it isn't the only. And in time, I do believe that the enduring community of passionate readers and writers will pave a better path for horse-I-mean-hard-working authors to get compensated.
Neigh. I mean, yes.
I agree with what everyone else said. Keep your chin up, Meg!
I really enjoyed the new segment, and thanks so much for sharing my story. I’m happy you enjoyed it. (Also, damn you, taxes - gah!)
Thank you, Justin!
It wasn't the tax return specifically that did it, more the feelings of "what the hell am I doing with my life?" that followed. 😂
I'm a cryer too.
However.
Crying annoys? my husband???
So I have learned to stifle it in a way...
Or transform it I guess.
Every rejection is one No closer to a Yes.
How does your husband respond to primal screaming? 😂 I believe it is the jilted lover of crying. And hell hath no fury... yadda yadda yadda.
Cry to me anytime, friend. I'm here for ya.
And I'd adore more "No"s. At least they're definitive. I'm less a fan of crickets.