Aug 12Liked by Meg Oolders, Samuél Lopez-Barrantes
It's the nature of creative folks to just want to create, and to leave the business aspects of it to, well, businessmen. Perhaps Blanche Dubois summed up best, "I have often depended on the kindness of strangers." Overall, that makes for a terrible business model.
Yeah especially because the strangers tend to also be artists. It's why I wanted to at least get a glimpse into how to do it myself, on a very small scale, so I didn't feel like the people who were telling me they knew what they were doing were just taking me for a ride. Which is what happened with the music label I worked with back in the day. It's less about greed than it is about incompetence, I've realized. If you want something done right ...
I think your decision to remove as many "middlemen" as possible goes to show how many people there are in publishing who stand to profit off of the work of writers - leaving very little for the writer themselves in the end. It's kind of icky, but icky is how it works most of the time. I'm still worried I won't break even or that I'll even lose money on my first publishing project. I'm still pretty clueless about the reality of expenses. And even after book making expenses, there will be marketing expenses. I'm going to have to do A LOT of math. 😟
Aug 13Liked by Samuél Lopez-Barrantes, Meg Oolders
I really don’t think it’s practical or realistic to expect to make any profit on your first published project - breaking even would be a miracle. I see it as a long game investment - you need to write more books after your first one because the more you publish the more likely you’re going to make a profit as new readers discover and buy your backlist. This is fiction anyway.
And IMO, Every book should get at least a 12-24 month marketing strategy- books can be evergreen money making assets if you write them well and market them slowly.
I think it all depends on the way you go about publishing. In our discussion Samuél compared his hybrid publishing experience to his independent publishing journey, and the difference in earned income was substantial. The first book sold 1300 copies, the second (more profitable book) sold 300 (so far) - and made him more money than the first.
I agree with you about committing to marketing our books for the long haul. I see a lot of authors give up on past published projects - or simply fail to mention them when listing their credentials and I wonder why. It's almost like leaving relevant job experience off your resume. We need to shine those up and remember that even when our books get old, they can still be new to new readers. 💜
I think this is a fair point, but if we as writers accept that our time writing a book will NEVER be paid, then finalizing, designing, and publishing our books ourselves can in fact be profitable. Here's a quick rundown of what I spent vs. made on my latest:
$700 for editorial
$300 for design
$2100 for printing (300 copies)
= $3100
I sold 300 books at $30 / book (incl. int'l shipping), which means I made about $16/book when all was said and done (when selling it in Paris, I sold it for 20 euros at no expenses, so 20 Euros profit/sale). The key was I didn't have to pay for interior design / layout, had favorable rates w/ my illustrator & editors b/c they're friends / acquaintances, & most importantly I got a sweet deal on international shipping (book rate is the equivalent in the USA).
In total, I ended up making a bit over $6000 for selling 300 books, which was twice what I invested. And that ain't too bad in my book!
A friend of mine is in the publishing business and told me she could get me some printing deals, with a MOQ of about 500. Were you given any more prices if you’d printed more than 300 on that first run? If you can sell 300 with little/no marketing, I wonder how hard/easy it would be to sell 500?
Great point, and I definitely would have saved on the cost per unit had I gone up to 500, but a) I wasn't confident I could sell 500 in the entirely grassroots style (now I am!) and b) I did want to have a limited-edition that was purposefully small to maintain a certain level of exclusivity to that specific version
I haven’t heard the podcast (yet!) - but I love both your points Meg and Samuel. I’m not sure I’ve ever considered that my writing time will be paid for haha… if that was the case I’d never make any money… but IF it did then expenses for shower water, petrol for the car rides and even bed sheets for sleeping should be covered too cos that’s when all my greatest ideas are formed!
I actually think I'd be good at business if I put my mind to it. It's the financial piece that gives me the most anxiety. I've never known how to put a price tag on anything I've created 100% myself. I know whatever amount I assign the "thing" it won't come close to covering the time and effort exerted. Yet others in other realms of capitalism have no issue charging $200 an hour just for the privilege of talking to them. It all comes down to what the consumer values, and as Samuel mentioned in our chat, we still have a long way to go in that department. Cheap and easy and/or perceived expertise still wins the buck.
You've got the instincts already signed & sealed. Mostly I just want to have a streamlined way to write, edit, prepare, & publish books in a way that doesn't hinder me from moving onto the next one. Hopefully, in the future, with a platform like Substack, the in-built community will provide the sales for whatever book comes out next, not necessarily in the thousands, but in the dozens or hundreds, which is already plenty admirable to me.
Aug 13Liked by Samuél Lopez-Barrantes, Meg Oolders
I loved this conversation and especially the chance to get to know Samuél a bit. I was surprised to hear how much we have in common. We both grew up in North Carolina with brothers who factor heavily into our lives. We're both musicians who pursued it as a career before turning to writing novels. We're both independent publishers. I don't live Paris and I'm not a young man so that's where we diverge. I also don't have a lustrous head of hair, so there's that.
Ben, what a small world indeed. I just subscribed b/c I have to admit I've been off my Substack reading game as of late, the physical books do me right in the summer. Looking forward to delving into your work and perhaps a conversation is soon in the cards so we can ramble about chicken n' dumplins & James Taylor & sweet iced tea
Aug 14Liked by Meg Oolders, Samuél Lopez-Barrantes
For better or worse, I can be a dead ringer for Mr. Taylor when I sing. I think his voice was in my mother's milk. I'd love to have a chat sometime and compare notes from our journey so far.
Cool! Thanks Meg!
My pleasure!
It's the nature of creative folks to just want to create, and to leave the business aspects of it to, well, businessmen. Perhaps Blanche Dubois summed up best, "I have often depended on the kindness of strangers." Overall, that makes for a terrible business model.
Yeah especially because the strangers tend to also be artists. It's why I wanted to at least get a glimpse into how to do it myself, on a very small scale, so I didn't feel like the people who were telling me they knew what they were doing were just taking me for a ride. Which is what happened with the music label I worked with back in the day. It's less about greed than it is about incompetence, I've realized. If you want something done right ...
I think your decision to remove as many "middlemen" as possible goes to show how many people there are in publishing who stand to profit off of the work of writers - leaving very little for the writer themselves in the end. It's kind of icky, but icky is how it works most of the time. I'm still worried I won't break even or that I'll even lose money on my first publishing project. I'm still pretty clueless about the reality of expenses. And even after book making expenses, there will be marketing expenses. I'm going to have to do A LOT of math. 😟
I really don’t think it’s practical or realistic to expect to make any profit on your first published project - breaking even would be a miracle. I see it as a long game investment - you need to write more books after your first one because the more you publish the more likely you’re going to make a profit as new readers discover and buy your backlist. This is fiction anyway.
And IMO, Every book should get at least a 12-24 month marketing strategy- books can be evergreen money making assets if you write them well and market them slowly.
Thanks for this, MJ.
I think it all depends on the way you go about publishing. In our discussion Samuél compared his hybrid publishing experience to his independent publishing journey, and the difference in earned income was substantial. The first book sold 1300 copies, the second (more profitable book) sold 300 (so far) - and made him more money than the first.
I agree with you about committing to marketing our books for the long haul. I see a lot of authors give up on past published projects - or simply fail to mention them when listing their credentials and I wonder why. It's almost like leaving relevant job experience off your resume. We need to shine those up and remember that even when our books get old, they can still be new to new readers. 💜
I think this is a fair point, but if we as writers accept that our time writing a book will NEVER be paid, then finalizing, designing, and publishing our books ourselves can in fact be profitable. Here's a quick rundown of what I spent vs. made on my latest:
$700 for editorial
$300 for design
$2100 for printing (300 copies)
= $3100
I sold 300 books at $30 / book (incl. int'l shipping), which means I made about $16/book when all was said and done (when selling it in Paris, I sold it for 20 euros at no expenses, so 20 Euros profit/sale). The key was I didn't have to pay for interior design / layout, had favorable rates w/ my illustrator & editors b/c they're friends / acquaintances, & most importantly I got a sweet deal on international shipping (book rate is the equivalent in the USA).
In total, I ended up making a bit over $6000 for selling 300 books, which was twice what I invested. And that ain't too bad in my book!
A friend of mine is in the publishing business and told me she could get me some printing deals, with a MOQ of about 500. Were you given any more prices if you’d printed more than 300 on that first run? If you can sell 300 with little/no marketing, I wonder how hard/easy it would be to sell 500?
Great point, and I definitely would have saved on the cost per unit had I gone up to 500, but a) I wasn't confident I could sell 500 in the entirely grassroots style (now I am!) and b) I did want to have a limited-edition that was purposefully small to maintain a certain level of exclusivity to that specific version
I haven’t heard the podcast (yet!) - but I love both your points Meg and Samuel. I’m not sure I’ve ever considered that my writing time will be paid for haha… if that was the case I’d never make any money… but IF it did then expenses for shower water, petrol for the car rides and even bed sheets for sleeping should be covered too cos that’s when all my greatest ideas are formed!
Haha now that's a political platform I can get behind: pay writers to sleep & dream.
I actually think I'd be good at business if I put my mind to it. It's the financial piece that gives me the most anxiety. I've never known how to put a price tag on anything I've created 100% myself. I know whatever amount I assign the "thing" it won't come close to covering the time and effort exerted. Yet others in other realms of capitalism have no issue charging $200 an hour just for the privilege of talking to them. It all comes down to what the consumer values, and as Samuel mentioned in our chat, we still have a long way to go in that department. Cheap and easy and/or perceived expertise still wins the buck.
You've got the instincts already signed & sealed. Mostly I just want to have a streamlined way to write, edit, prepare, & publish books in a way that doesn't hinder me from moving onto the next one. Hopefully, in the future, with a platform like Substack, the in-built community will provide the sales for whatever book comes out next, not necessarily in the thousands, but in the dozens or hundreds, which is already plenty admirable to me.
I loved this conversation and especially the chance to get to know Samuél a bit. I was surprised to hear how much we have in common. We both grew up in North Carolina with brothers who factor heavily into our lives. We're both musicians who pursued it as a career before turning to writing novels. We're both independent publishers. I don't live Paris and I'm not a young man so that's where we diverge. I also don't have a lustrous head of hair, so there's that.
So happy you tuned in for this one, Ben. If this podcast only serves to help my favorite writers find each other, I will be happy.
I also don't live in Paris, nor am I a young man. The grass looks very green over there, doesn't it. 😉
It is in fact very green.
Ben, what a small world indeed. I just subscribed b/c I have to admit I've been off my Substack reading game as of late, the physical books do me right in the summer. Looking forward to delving into your work and perhaps a conversation is soon in the cards so we can ramble about chicken n' dumplins & James Taylor & sweet iced tea
🥰
For better or worse, I can be a dead ringer for Mr. Taylor when I sing. I think his voice was in my mother's milk. I'd love to have a chat sometime and compare notes from our journey so far.
Oh wow, well now I gotta hear this so me & my brother (singer-songwriter on this platform: https://artbyalb.substack.com) can harmonize, babay!
What's the best email to shoot you a message, that way we can be all official about it?
Ben@benwakeman.com